WYNTON MARSALIS ON WILLIE NELSON

I reached Wynton Marsalis by phone, in London, on July 12, 2022. I suppose you could call the conversation an “interview”—but the truth is, there were hardly any questions posed. Marsalis simply got on the phone and poured out a beautiful, far-sighted, poetic monologue that took in swathes of history, musical and otherwise. It was like a trumpet solo. Of course I was only about to include a couple of brief quotes in my NYT Mag Willie Nelson piece, but the whole thing is worth reading. So I’m posting it here.

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 Jody Rosen: I guess the place I want to start is—I mean, obviously [Nelson’s] a guitarist and vocalist who has a lot of jazz up in his music. As a listener, one thing that obviously immediately strikes a person about Willie is his unique relationship to the beat. You know, he’s one of those guys who is often behind the beat in a very expressive way, or maybe rushing out in front of it. So I wonder what it’s like to play with him. And what it’s like for you as, as a listener, encountering his music and his unique sense of rhythm.

Wynton Marsalis: Well, the first thing is that yeah, there have been great musicians who play jazz and who don’t play jazz. Like, there are many great musicians in all kinds of American traditions and idioms. In the folk tradition, the blues traditions, hip-hop. All traditions have great musicians who embody the different components of musicianship. You know—pitch, rhythm, the understanding of melody. Et cetera. And then there’s another spiritual level, where you understand the largest objectives of whatever you’re playing.

JR: Right.

WM: So, Willie. First, I’m pretty sure Willie has perfect pitch. Okay? I asked him, he acted like that wasn’t a thing he was aware of, he was very modest about it. But we played some songs where there’s no way in the world you could find your note out of the info that was played. He was never, ever off and he’s always in tune.

JR: Yeah.

WM: People tease the way—they talk about how his singing voice sounds. But when he sings, he sings in tune, man.

JR: Yeah.

WM: Another thing is, Willie, at one point, he played bass. So he told me a story once, where he was saying that, you know, the guitar, you can move all kind of notes around, you can move things around. But a bass—that’s the foundation. You have to know what notes mean when you play bass.

JR: Yeah.

WM: So Willie brings all that to the table. He has a very sophisticated harmonic sense. You just look at the songs he wrote. And not just a harmonic sense. He has that melodic understanding which allows him to write incredible songs that can be called traditional folk songs, that can be called country & western songs, that can be called the American popular song. And that can be blue.

JR: Yes.

WM: Now, so, to be great in all the forms that Willie is great in—it’s extremely rare. The only other people I’d put in his category are Ray Charles and Pops. That’s it. And he has whatever that spiritual thing is, that thing you can’t describe. It’s like a shamanistic type of insight into the nature of all things. From that place of understanding, he can play anything he wants to play that comes out of the American tradition. And he, like Ray Charles and Pops, is unbelievably credible in all those forms.

JR: It’s funny that you mention Ray Charles and Armstrong…

WM: But what I just said was actually—Ray Charles told Willie that. We were all sitting together and Ray Charles said that about Willie.

JR: No kidding.

WM: Yeah. Willie and I went to Ray Charles’ funeral together. But Willie is—Willie’s a singular man. Like, his spirit is large. He is a large, large spirit.

JR: Yeah.

WM: Like some people have that kind of deep gift of insight. Yeah. And he’s extremely insightful about—I remember in one rehearsal—I don’t know if you could incorporate this in the article but—were playing a piece and the ending was not right. And Willie was looking at the rhythm section. He never said a word. He just went back to the point that it was wrong and it still wasn’t right. He just looked at everybody like—You know? Then he started playing it again. And then it was right. And then when it got right, he said: “Mighty fine, gentlemen.” And that was that.

JR: Yeah.

WM: But in the silence of the space, he was just looking at everybody like—it was like, This is where we near to hear it, let’s hear it lift. Let’s not talk about it.

JR: Right.

WM: And he really can hear, man. Another thing I want to point out is the fantastic consistency of his solos. Like, his solos are—he can be very adventurous melodically. And of course it has a harmonic application. But one thing is, the best solos are always thematically coherent. They do their musical talking in sentences and they make it make sense. ‘Cause with the music, when you’re improvising, with all the changes and the time and everything—it can get ahead of you, and you can lose track of where you are.

JR: Right.

WM: He always has a great map and a layout. He’s a storyteller. And not only is he a storyteller: the stories that he’s telling are stories that you need to know.

JR: I mean, all these things you’re saying are so well put and so true, in my experience as a listener. He’s one of those musicians—with both his music and his lyrics, he’ll take you to a very deep place.

WM: He is an empath. He’s an empath and a mystic. But the other thing I just wanna say is: you are a man before you are a musician.

JR: Right.

WM: And some people can put whatever it is they are into their music. ‘Cause it’s not a thing you can learn unless you can actually practice it in your life, in your very being. He is a man that, if you’re around him, you develop real love for him. You could could line up people—and I’m sure you have in your interviews—people will tell you how much they love the man. I mean, it’s hard to even put it in words. He’s just a man that you love. And if you think about all of the people that man has helped.

JR: Yeah.

WM: And of what he’s given of himself, for no remuneration. Just to be there—to be a part of what’s going on. They use the word “national treasure” a lot. It’s just overused. But this is a man—just being around the man, you see the type of humanity that he has.

JR: Yeah.

WM: And then that goes into his music. His insight is in his songs and it’s in his melodies and his sound. And now you talk about the sound he gets. He’ll put a sound on you. Your sound is your identity, right? As a musician, your sound is your identity. It’s not the words. The words are important, but the sound is carries much more weight and value. And when the words and the sound is right, you got something on your hands.

JR: Let me ask you this. This is a weird one, but, ok, Willie is famous for his weed. You mentioned Pops. Obviously, he liked a smoke, he was known for that—he was famous for having a smoke. I’m just wondering what you think about the relationship of music to mind-altering substances—if you think that that can unlock doors for people of certain sensibilities.

WM: I don’t. I don’t have any confidence in that as a scientific theory. I think you can’t tell me a night when they are high or not high. I think if that was the case, everybody who smoked weed, would’ve played like Willie and everybody who did heroin would have played like Bird. But nobody but him played like him. Willie Nelson is the product of his life experiences. I can tell you one funny story. It just summarizes some shit about Willie. So we address it. One time we were backstage, in the dressing room. It was me, Willie, B.B. King, Ray Charles and Eric Clapton. We were just talking and bullshitting. And Willie said: “Well, gentlemen, I think I’m the only one here who actually picked cotton.” We all lost it, laughing. But the truth is, Willie has had some profound experiences. His music, his knowledge, comes from a long, long way, man.

JR: Right, right.

WM: Generations, generations. So hey, if the man wants to smoke him some weed, leave him alone. It’s like with Pops. If we’re lucky enough to have somebody like that, who’s contributing so much? Leave him alone, man. Let the man have him some weed. Don’t forget, it’s a lot of intensity having that kind of knowledge.

JR: Right.

WM: There’s a lot of intensity comes from that. And there’s a lot that it takes to give that much. And it’s internal. It’s like what Abraham Lincoln said about Grant. They said, “Well, Grant is an alcoholic.” And Lincoln said, “Well, get him a case of whatever he’s drinking.”

JR: I’ve got a couple more quick ones. I promise I’ll be quick.

WM: No problem. Man, I will talk all night for Willie. Let me explain that. I will walk to New York and talk for him. I would, and I’m sure everybody you talk to is that way. He’s a beautiful person. But he carries a blade in his pocket. Don’t be fooled by him. He carries a blade in his pocket. Trust me.

JR: Right.

WM: And that blade has a searing double-edged insight of the truth in it. Whoa. He carries it.

JR: Mr. Marsalis, can you write my piece for me? There’s too much good stuff coming out of your mouth right now.

WM: That’s just being old, man.

JR: So here’s a question. When you, when you played those shows with Willie and your band, was it difficult for the musicians to get in sync with him? I’m not in any way impugning anyone’s musicianship, obviously. It’s just that, of course, Willie is really free when it comes to tempo. It’s like the way that John Lee Hooker can put, like, 27 bars into a 12-bar blues, you know?

WM: No, no. We were right there with him. You know, we’re from New Orleans. That band had an almost entirely New Orleans rhythm section. And Willie’s from Texas. When we play with flamenco musicians, that might be tricky. Yeah. But, you know, Texas and Louisiana? You take a look at the map.

JR: You were talking a little bit about a sound and tone. Now, obviously like Willie’s got a vocal tone, which is unique and beautiful. But I’m wondering about his tone on the guitar. As someone who’s such a student of music history, what do you hear when Willie plays? Obviously, people always talk about Django. Willie himself talks about Django. But do you hear other things, other aspects of tradition coming through?

WM: Yeah, you know, it’s the whole southwestern, southern school of guitar. The blues from Texas and the southwest. But Willie is singular. You know, Miles Davis has a song called “Willie Nelson.” And when I was in high school, I was like: “Why would Miles write a song for Willie Nelson?” But once you got around to Willie, once you understand who Willie is, you learn that he’s an original with that same type of tonal imprint as Miles. He invented his own sound. Django had his way of playing. Willie’s way of playing is his way. Willie plays with the virtuosity of originality.

JR: Yeah.

WM: Like, to be an original is another type of virtuosity. We tend to think that virtuosity is velocity. Velocity is one aspect of virtuosity. But someone like Thelonious Monk comes to mind. With Monk, like, you know—Monk is just Monk. Yeah, you can hear some Duke Ellington coming through with Monk. But his approach is his own.

JR: Right.

WM: It’s the same with Willie. The richness of his sound and his approach is his original conception. Like, it takes a lot of intensity to invent an original conception of playing.

JR: Yeah. Wynton, thank you so much for your time.

WM: I love him. I love Willie. I love the man. There’s nothing in music that he has a problem with. It’s like Lionel Hampton. He could play on “Giant Steps” and all these difficult songs.

JR: Yeah.

WM: You’d be shocked. Like, you think Hamp is from the 1930s and 40s. And then you hear him playing “Giant Steps.” You say, “Damn, he could play on that.” Willie don’t have a problem playing music, man. He’ll look at something, whatever it is. He’ll figure it out. Plus, another thing is just the depth of his intelligence. I don’t know if we touched on that. He’s a profoundly intelligent man on many issues.

JR: Right.

WM: So that’s why sometimes—the whole thing about Willie and weed. Okay, Willie likes to smoke him some weed. But talk to Willie about something.

JR: Right, right.

WM: Pops was like that too. Just deep intelligence. And not just native intelligence, like what it’s always accounted to. Deep intelligence. Deep.

JR: Right.

WM: Yeah, man, I miss being with Willie. I love him.